Cancer and Exercise

Exercise and cancer used to feel like opposites.

For years, the common advice for someone going through treatment was simple: rest. And while rest is absolutely essential, we now know that appropriate, intentional movement can be one of the most powerful tools available to people living with cancer.

In this empowering episode of Living to Thrive with Cancer, I sit down with internationally recognized oncology exercise researcher Dr. Anna Schwartz to talk about what the science really says about cancer and exercise and why movement is not just safe, but transformative.

This conversation is for you if you are:

• Newly diagnosed and unsure what’s safe
• In active treatment and struggling with fatigue
• Post-treatment and wondering how to rebuild strength
• A caregiver supporting someone through recovery

Dr. Schwartz shares decades of research and clinical experience to help us understand how exercise supports healing physically, emotionally, and even biologically.

In This Episode We Discuss:

✨ Why exercise during cancer treatment is not only safe for most people but beneficial
 ✨ The truth about cancer-related fatigue (and why rest alone isn’t the solution)
 ✨ How movement supports immune function and recovery
 ✨ The role of strength training in rebuilding confidence and resilience
 ✨ What kind of exercise is most effective and how to start small
 ✨ How to shift from fear of movement to trust in your body again

Dr. Schwartz reminds us that exercise is not about pushing harder or “bouncing back.” It’s about reclaiming agency. It’s about reminding your body that it is capable. It’s about participation in your own healing.

And that mindset shift? That’s where thriving begins.

Learn more about Dr Anna Schwartz

Cancer Exercise app: www.cancerexercise.com

Dr Schwartz's practice: DrAnnaLSchwartz.com

Books (Cancer Fitness, Essentials or Exercise Oncology and others) : annaschwartzphd.com

American College of Medicine Moving Through Cancer resources: https://www.exerciseismedicine.org/eim-in-action/moving-through-cancer-2/

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Transcript

Episode 5.12

[00:00:00] Kathryn: Welcome to episode 5.12 of the Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast. I'm Kathryn White, your podcast host and cancer coach. In today's episode, I am so excited to be talking with Dr. Anna Schwartz. Dr. Anna Schwartz is a researcher, clinician, and cancer survivor who has dedicated her career to helping people thrive through exercise and movement.

[00:00:22] Kathryn: When she was diagnosed with cancer as a young woman with big dreams, she refused. To let it stop her. She kept riding her bike, setting world records and living fully. That personal experience sparked a passion that became her life's work. Anna has spent decades studying how exercise benefits cancer survivors publishing hundreds of research papers and authoring seven books on the subject.

[00:00:47] Kathryn: She's collaborated with organizations like the American College of Sports Medicine, Y-M-C-A-U-S. A and live Strong to create exercise programs specifically designed for cancer survivors. Her approach blends her experience as a world class cyclist, cancer survivor, research scientist, and nurse practitioner.

[00:01:07] Kathryn: Today Anna creates educational content that translates complex health research into accessible information and offers her strength for living longevity programs. The Resilience Reset Retreat, and the Cancer Exercise app to help people understand and optimize their health to live their best lives. For her, thriving has evolved from a personal journey to a mission of making a difference for others.

[00:01:33] Kathryn: Dr. Schwartz, welcome, welcome, welcome to the Living to Thrive with Cancer Podcast. 

[00:01:39] Dr Schwartz: Thank you. It's exciting to be talking with you today. I appreciate it. 

[00:01:43] Kathryn: I am just so enthralled with your work and so grateful that I was connected to you through a mutual friend, um, and that we have so much to talk about.

[00:01:55] Kathryn: Particularly right now as there's just so much information that is coming out around exercise and cancer survivorship. But, um, as we, we, we had a little chat before we got on here. You were doing this long before other people were publishing, and so I think that you are the perfect person to speak to this and to the listeners today.

[00:02:16] Dr Schwartz: Thank you. Yeah, it's a, it's a really exciting time in exercise and oncology or cancer and exercise, however you wanna call it. 

[00:02:23] Kathryn: Yes, yes. So, um, perhaps you can just give the listeners a little bit of your personal background around your cancer story, if that's okay, and how it relates to you becoming an, becoming an advocate for cancer patients.

[00:02:39] Dr Schwartz: Yeah, so I was just a happy-go-lucky college kid, finishing nursing school. Um, really close to finishing nursing school actually. And I got diagnosed with lymphoma, which, you know, it was just, it was, I was living in South Florida or in central Florida, university of Florida, and. It felt like the storm clouds there get this black, green color, and it just felt like they were just sinking over my head and the world was becoming really dark and really small, and I was so overwhelmed and I didn't have the support system and really struggled emotionally.

[00:03:14] Dr Schwartz: Um, I did get through, through nursing school on time, um, but I realized that there were all these things in my life that I really wanted to do, and I suddenly realized my life could be cut short really quickly. And if it wasn't cut short, it was gonna be really changed. And that motivated me to, um, start riding my bicycle and doing things that were really important to me instead of what everybody thought I should be doing.

[00:03:43] Dr Schwartz: Um, and so that kind of laid the, the foundation for, um. I guess the, the next 30 years, 30 plus years of my life, um, I said I started riding my bike and I got invited to start bike racing with one of the top women's teams. And that evolved into one of my childhood dreams had been to ride my bike across the country.

[00:04:05] Kathryn: Hmm. 

[00:04:06] Dr Schwartz: And I, so I did that and at the end of the 15 day ride, the woman who, um. Led the tour. Her name was Susan Notar. She's a very famous ultra cyclist, and she said, you're the only woman I've ever met who can break my 24 hour record. And I thought, who wants to ride for 24 hours? This is crazy. But she put the seed in my, in my little mind, and.

[00:04:30] Dr Schwartz: And I thought, you know, when I ride, I feel fully alive, you know, the wind in my face, whether it's hot or cold. And I really, it just made me feel like I was really fully embracing life. And um, so I set several world records. Um, and then when I was getting ready to set a. A track world record up on the Velodrome, which is a, a small oval, uh, that people race bicycles on.

[00:04:55] Dr Schwartz: Um, I was up in, um, at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado, and I didn't feel right. Just, I, I just didn't feel strong. I, I felt really tired, but I was incredibly fit, but things just weren't right. And that was the last record that I attempted, and it was an attempt. We had to call it after about six hours because it was clear I wasn't riding fast enough to set a world record and I felt terrible.

[00:05:24] Dr Schwartz: And of course that was the herald to a recurrence. And when I had that recurrence, I really thought it's time for me to do something different besides everything focused on me and the bike. Um, and so it was. I had seen what a huge difference exercise had made for me, and when I got my patients, I was working as a bone marrow transplant nurse, and when I got my patients to exercise a little bit, I saw that they felt better, they had less fatigue.

[00:05:55] Dr Schwartz: Their depression seemed to lift a little bit and. I thought there's something to this and nobody's doing this research. And so I decided at that point I was gonna go back to school and focus my life energy on cancer and exercise research, even though there wasn't such a field at that time. Um, and that was the beginning of my whole career.

[00:06:16] Dr Schwartz: Um, 

[00:06:17] Kathryn: it's brilliant and beautiful that, you know, cancer can be seen as such a, um. Well, a life changing event, which it is. Mm-hmm. It's, and some people really frame it, um, as stopping life as like, this is the moment where my life stopped. Mm-hmm. But I love the reframe around, like, this is the moment where, this is where the momentum begins to make change and to.

[00:06:42] Kathryn: Live it differently and incorporate your, your personal education and wisdom into this whole cancer story and cancer and exercise. 

[00:06:52] Dr Schwartz: I think that that moment that you talked about when life stops or it feels like it could stop, um. I mean, that's certainly, I think that's almost a universal feeling among all cancer survivors.

[00:07:03] Dr Schwartz: I certainly had that. I mean, I, I really struggled and then I just, I was sitting in my little apartment and I looked at my bike and I thought. I should get on my bike and ride it. I don't know what made me think that they, everybody told me to go home and rest, and I got on my bike and went for a little ride and suddenly I felt better.

[00:07:23] Dr Schwartz: My mood changed, my outlook on life changed. I felt like I was alive again instead of this little ball curled up on the couch feeling horrible. And, um, and so that really, that was the beginning of a whole momentous change in my life. 

[00:07:37] Kathryn: That leads so beautifully into what I wanted you to address first, this whole myth of rest, because mine was the same.

[00:07:46] Kathryn: I was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. It was like a catastrophic event in our life and everybody else's life. Everyone was like waiting for me basically to die and telling me to just go. Everyone was was, oh, you have to rest. I remember quick story, I was out one day, I was just feeling really good and I went out for a little run around my block, put my running shoes on.

[00:08:08] Kathryn: I was like, it's only 500 meters. I can do this. And partway through, friends drove by, stopped, and they were like, you need to go home. What are you doing? You need to go home, you should be resting like you're not. Well, I'm like, but I feel good today. This is a good day. 

[00:08:21] Dr Schwartz: This is a great day. And I'm feeling better.

[00:08:23] Kathryn: Yeah. And I feel better being outside and feeling like I'm doing something. I had run five marathons at that point, pre-cancer, and so it was like, well. But this is in my, like it's in my cells to do this. So all of that to say, there's a chapter in your book around rest and the big myth, I love that. Can you speak to the myth of poor you?

[00:08:47] Kathryn: You need to go home, sit on your couch. Mm-hmm. And, and please don't move. Right. Just be quiet, 

[00:08:53] Dr Schwartz: right? Yeah. Just rest, you'll be better. And that is unfortunately, I mean, 30 years later, we're still telling people, go home and take it easy. Go home and take care of yourself. And what that means for most people is to go home and sit on the couch and somebody else will take the trash out and somebody will bring you food.

[00:09:11] Dr Schwartz: And you shouldn't go for a walk. You should protect, you know, protect yourself. And really, we're, we're working really hard to try and flip that myth because. We need to be up moving. When you get cancer, you need to be exercising. The minute you get that diagnosis, well, you should be exercising anyway before you had cancer.

[00:09:30] Dr Schwartz: But hey, so a lot of people don't, but when you get that wake up call, you need to get up and start moving. And it doesn't have to be a marathon. It doesn't have to be riding your bike across the United States. Mm-hmm. It can be walking to your mailbox and back. It can be. You know, I talk about in my book about walking around your dining room table and you know, if you're really debilitated, if you're totally exhausted or if it's miserable outside, walk around your dining room table, pull the chairs out, and you have a place to sit down if you have overwhelming fatigue or you feel really weak and.

[00:10:06] Dr Schwartz: The advice that we have given patients, not just cancer patients, but all patients to rest and take care of themselves, is the absolute worst advice we could give to somebody. Even though it's well-meaning advice, people need to get up and move. Our bodies are meant to move. We look at animals and they move around all the time.

[00:10:25] Dr Schwartz: We're, we're a little, we're thinking animals with thumbs. 

[00:10:30] Kathryn: So yeah. I love that. It's true. And, you know, even having, I have been in the hospital a number of times for surgeries and, and just that urge to get out of the bed and move my body and do something and, and the No, you can't. And you know, when you're attached to all the things, that makes it a little more challenging, but not impossible.

[00:10:48] Dr Schwartz: Correct. 

[00:10:49] Kathryn: So I developed this philosophy, um, very early on that. I would always walk out of a hospital. 

[00:10:56] Dr Schwartz: I 

[00:10:56] Kathryn: love that. I would never accept the wheelchair and, you know, the, the poor nurses, my husband would be like, just leave her. She's got this. I'm with her. We've got this. Mm-hmm. Because for me that was the beginning of like, okay, I've been in bed for four days here.

[00:11:08] Kathryn: I need you're independence. Yes, it is independence. And it's showing myself that I am strong enough to do this and then go home and, and start integrating more. I made a little note when you were talking about, um. You know, taking out the garbage and things like that. And it just made me think about even the mental health piece around movement and, and the lying there, please bring me my water.

[00:11:33] Kathryn: Please bring me my food. And there's a time and a place for that. I'm not diminishing that 

[00:11:37] Dr Schwartz: right. 

[00:11:37] Kathryn: But the empowerment and the physical and mental empowerment in getting up and taking out like the lightest bag, it doesn't matter, right? Like doing something really changes. Yeah. Meaningful and sort of relieving the caregiver at the same time of, of even one task.

[00:11:56] Dr Schwartz: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:57] Kathryn: So yeah, this whole myth of you need to be sitting is actually 

[00:12:03] Dr Schwartz: dreadful. It makes people, so also when I worked in the bone marrow transplant unit, one of the things that I observed was the patients who not only moved around their little tiny, you know, sort of cell-like room, um. They not only did better, but they were the ones who could walk, walk.

[00:12:18] Dr Schwartz: They walked their wheelchair, they pushed their wheelchair out of the unit when they got discharged, and they were the ones who walked back in without any aids. 

[00:12:27] Kathryn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:27] Dr Schwartz: Whereas the patients who were wheeled out were usually the ones that were wheeled back in, in the wheelchair when they came for follow up.

[00:12:34] Dr Schwartz: So, very much, you know, it's, it's all about developing that, maintaining and, and maybe even developing greater strength to maintain your independence and. Your, your mental health. Definitely. It makes a huge difference. 

[00:12:48] Kathryn: Yeah. It's that creating that survivor mentality as exactly, or I call it a thriver mentality as opposed to a victim mentality.

[00:12:54] Kathryn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:55] Dr Schwartz: Like 

[00:12:55] Kathryn: it's empowerment. 

[00:12:57] Dr Schwartz: Yeah, 

[00:12:58] Kathryn: we could talk about that all day. Yeah. But it does relate to the movement in the body because even walking around your dining room table is enabling yourself to believe that you can do something. 

[00:13:08] Dr Schwartz: Right. Right. And I've had so many patients tell me, I can't do the laundry 'cause it's downstairs.

[00:13:14] Dr Schwartz: And I'm like, well sure you can do the laundry. You know, you can. Either get somebody to carry it down for you and you can go down and do it, and soon you'll be carrying the laundry back upstairs. And that's what, you know, it's not glamorous, but it's the essentials of, you know, these, all these little things in life and they all add up to having the physical ability to go out and do what you wanna do that's really meaningful.

[00:13:37] Dr Schwartz: Whether that's playing with your grandchildren or taking your dog for a walk or just going outside and, and relishing in the sun, in the sunshine. 

[00:13:45] Kathryn: Yes. 

[00:13:46] Dr Schwartz: And I think, I think we don't give enough value to the importance of being outside, whether it's sunny or it's it's gray. There's something very healing to being outside.

[00:13:58] Dr Schwartz: And we haven't done a lot of research in this area, but it's very clear. I mean, if I exercise inside versus going outside to exercise, I feel. Much more kind of fulfilled spiritually, um, when I'm outside, even if it's snowing or raining on me or whatever. 

[00:14:14] Kathryn: Yeah. I, I live here in Canada and we're having a particularly snowy and cold winter, and, you know, even when it's, um, minus 20 Celsius, minus 25 Celsius mm-hmm.

[00:14:26] Kathryn: I'm still going outside and doing a walk. It might not be my longest walk. Right. But it's, it's, as you say, there is something about. Going outside and just having the sun, or if even if it's cloudy, there's still, you know. Mm-hmm. There's just so much value in trees and birds and snow. Exactly. Just what you see, nature 

[00:14:45] Dr Schwartz: therapy.

[00:14:45] Kathryn: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And if you're walking in snow, it is a little more challenging and so you're getting a little bit of a workout while you're walking in the snow. For 

[00:14:53] Dr Schwartz: sure. Absolutely. 

[00:14:55] Kathryn: Yeah. So what do you see as, um. Well, we sort of maybe just covered it, but perhaps you, there's other things to add key benefits to a person who, who has just been diagnosed.

[00:15:08] Kathryn: Let's maybe just work in the world of just diagnosed or in treatment. Mm-hmm. Um, what's key benefits to them beginning an exercise program or routine? 

[00:15:18] Dr Schwartz: Um, you know, there's, there's a huge amount of research in this area now. I mean, thousands and thousands of articles, and it's really clear when you're first diagnosed and when you're in treatment, the number one side effect is fatigue.

[00:15:30] Dr Schwartz: Fatigue is overwhelming. It's crushing, it affects, it affects every aspect of your life, and it, it really leads to a lot of emotional and, um, kinda depressive symptoms because you're so tired, you can't think clearly. You, you don't, you can't do the activities you wanna do, and it's very counterintuitive to people.

[00:15:51] Dr Schwartz: But exercise is the number one. Intervention that we have, it's the best intervention we have to reduce fatigue. And so beginning an exercise program will reduce your fatigue, will help with, um, depression, will help with that whole anxiety about what does a scan show? How am I gonna respond to treatment?

[00:16:11] Dr Schwartz: You know, there's just, cancer is such an anxiety provoking illness, particularly at the beginning when you're in that. Early diagnostic phase when there's so much unknown and exercise gives you a little bit of control in your life. It also gives you a huge amount of energy back and it reduces your anxiety, your depression, um, helps with your bone density and you know, you're not thinking about that when you're in the middle of treatment.

[00:16:36] Dr Schwartz: But a lot of the drugs that we give waste your bones. And so by exercising a little bit, particularly with resistance exercise. You can maintain your bone density and, and your bone health. You maintain your strength, which means you've maintained your functional ability and functional ability is your ability to move around and do things without getting exhausted, basically.

[00:16:57] Dr Schwartz: That's a very basic explanation. But having an increased functional ability or better strength and fitness means that when you feel good and you wanna go out to lunch with your friends, or you wanna go shopping, or you wanna go play with your grandkids, you've got the energy to do it and you're not completely wasted from doing it.

[00:17:18] Dr Schwartz: And so beginning a very slow structured exercise program. That's both aerobic and resistance. Um, helps you manage the side effects. And we're even seeing that it helps with some of the brain fog, the cognitive impairment that comes with, with some cancers. Um, it's helps with some neuropathies. Um, particularly if you do it on a vibration plate.

[00:17:40] Dr Schwartz: We're seeing some results from that. So it's, um, it's a really powerful intervention that we have not given enough. Um. As clinicians, we haven't given enough care and time and attention to patients to get them to somebody who can, um, initiate the proper exercise program. 

[00:18:00] Kathryn: Yeah, it's. It is life changing to move your body.

[00:18:05] Kathryn: It is life changing. And you touched on some things that, um, I get lots of questions about, like, how do I manage my neuropathy? Like I never thought about the vibration plate as a possibility. Mm-hmm. There's other, other ways, um, or, you know, brain fog. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah. Because you, you're constantly turning things over when you're exercising, moving things in your body.

[00:18:27] Dr Schwartz: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:18:28] Kathryn: That's brilliant. I was speaking with my own oncologist the other day and um, he, we were speaking about the studies that have come out around colorectal cancer and exercise in survivorship and during treatment. Um, and there's studies a lot coming out now on breast cancer also, but he was saying that one of the first things he does now, which he didn't do 10 years ago when I first, 11 years ago when I first met him, was tell people to.

[00:18:55] Kathryn: Get a gym membership, get a personal trainer, start exercising, find away. And I was just like, thank you, thank you, thank you so 

[00:19:01] Dr Schwartz: much. Yeah, that's that's fantastic to hear that. 

[00:19:05] Kathryn: Yeah. And hopefully more, hopefully, you know, more, will get on on your, your pioneer work that you have put out there that people now will start to, um.

[00:19:16] Kathryn: See the benefits. So you also speak in your book, um, which we'll talk about in a minute, about you have a chapter on exercising and recurrence. 

[00:19:26] Dr Schwartz: Mm-hmm. 

[00:19:26] Kathryn: Um, and, you know, recurrence and, and people with metastatic cancer. So I live with stage four colon cancer. This is my life. And, um, recurrence is always. It is always a fear.

[00:19:40] Dr Schwartz: Right. 

[00:19:40] Kathryn: And so what, can you dive a little bit into this chapter around recurrence? 

[00:19:47] Dr Schwartz: Yeah. I think, you know when, when you get diagnosed with a recurrence, it's like your life just crumbles right back in and you feel like you've slid back to where you were when you were first diagnosed, except to me anyway.

[00:19:59] Dr Schwartz: It's always felt much more magnified and more intense because it is a recurrence and it might be a metastatic disease and. And all of these things have such an impact on what's next, where's your life going from here? And it's really hard to be in the moment. And I think exercise really helps you to focus on your breathing, on the movement, um, and kind of be more physically present in the moment, um, so that you're really.

[00:20:32] Dr Schwartz: Able to, I think, actually process a lot of things in your back of your mind. I have no idea how we would do that as a study to see the cognitive changes that happen to people when they exercise. And I'm just thinking of this as I'm talking about it. But there's so much mental processing that goes on when you're doing an aerobic exercise in particular, whether it's walking or cycling.

[00:20:54] Dr Schwartz: Um, I think it's that rhythmic activity and in the back of your mind, you're processing things and it, it kind of brings your anxiety down and I think it really helps you to reframe things and you still have the control and the strength to get out and exercise. So my thinking is it can't be that bad, can it?

[00:21:13] Kathryn: Yeah. 

[00:21:15] Dr Schwartz: But exercise when you have a recurrence and when you have metastatic disease is, has been well documented to be, um, helpful to, and safe. And safe is a big thing because people really worry, can I really exercise with metastatic disease or even with cancer, period when they first get diagnosed. Um, and those seem like they should be.

[00:21:37] Dr Schwartz: Everybody should know that it's safe to exercise, but most people don't. I mean, I've been doing this for 30 years, so I know it's like, yeah, duh. But most people don't know this, you know? So we have to assure people that it's safe to exercise. And if they have metastatic disease, how to exercise around their, where they may have a metastasis, if they have something that might put them at risk for, like, if they have bone metastasis.

[00:22:02] Dr Schwartz: Some bone metastasis means you need a more guided exercise and you might need to exercise with an, with a physical therapist to learn how to exercise properly. 

[00:22:12] Kathryn: Right? 

[00:22:13] Dr Schwartz: Um, there are times when you might need to exercise. Maybe not with a physical therapist, but maybe with somebody who has special education, a cancer exercise trainer, um, who knows how to put your body through movements that make it safe so you can get stronger and regain your balance or at least maintain your balance, um, or maybe get stronger and fitter and faster, which is what I like to see people do.

[00:22:41] Kathryn: Yes. 

[00:22:42] Dr Schwartz: Yeah. 

[00:22:42] Kathryn: Yes. I had a guest on the podcast, um, this season. His name is Rob Steele, and he is a cancer fitness certified, cancer fitness instructor. Mm-hmm. He lives with, with, um, a, a stage four diagnosis. A metastatic diagnosis, and he has taken his story and turned it into. I want people to move. I wanna help people move.

[00:23:03] Kathryn: I didn't even know that there was certifications in that. I know there's a program out of the states called Yoga for Cancer. Mm-hmm. That is a very specific training to deal with women with lymphatic drain issues after mastectomies and mm-hmm. Gentle movement. So, um, I feel like my next mission is maybe to put together a list, or perhaps it's in the back of your book, of, um, places where people can go to find certified cancer.

[00:23:29] Kathryn: Fitness instructors. Yeah, 

[00:23:31] Dr Schwartz: so actually part of my work through with, with the American College of Sports Medicine, we have a group called Moving Through Cancer. We've actually put together an international registry of all the cancer exercise programs in the world. And it gets updated regularly. Um, so if you look up, if you search moving through Cancer, that that will take you to the page that has all of this information about the exercise guidelines, how to get moving inpatient friendly information.

[00:24:00] Dr Schwartz: And also then there's the clinician version that's a little more scientific and nerdy. Um. And then a whole list of resources, um, whether it's physical therapists or certified exercise trainers or group programs, or like my app that's a virtual program. Um, all of that information is in there and readily accessible, you know, to anybody who can get on the internet.

[00:24:25] Kathryn: Oh, thank you. You just saved me hours of work. 

[00:24:27] Dr Schwartz: Yes, yes. And working with, uh, a certified exercise cancer exercise trainer is really important for a lot of cancer survivors. Not only gives them the confidence that they're exercising with someone who knows what to do, but you know, safe for a woman with lymphedema.

[00:24:47] Dr Schwartz: You can't just go to the regular gym because gym trainers don't really know how to manage lymphedema. And so. You really want them to exercise with somebody who knows how to gradually progress them in a safe manner so their lymphedema doesn't flare or they don't develop a new onset of lymphedema.

[00:25:07] Dr Schwartz: 'cause exercise is very doable for, for women with lymphedema, but it has to be started properly. So there's, um, and so one of the things that we do with the moving Through Cancer group is we're trying to develop, we have a very nice referral and triage system laid out, but we need to get more clinicians involved in it, more trainers to know about it so that it's, it's available to more patients.

[00:25:31] Kathryn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:25:31] Dr Schwartz: It's really the, you know, dissemination to, um, to cancer survivors everywhere so that they know that this information is there, exercise is safe, and how to do it. 

[00:25:42] Kathryn: This is just so timely that we connected and in mm-hmm. You have this like foundation of information that needs to be shared because these are the questions that people are asking, right?

[00:25:53] Kathryn: What can I do? How do I do it? Who do I do it with? I'm afraid to move. Everyone's telling me to rest like it. We really, there's so many barriers around survivorship possibility that need to be broken down and this. This is a, just a great conversation around where people can, what people can do what, yeah.

[00:26:12] Kathryn: And where they can find the resources to do that. 

[00:26:16] Dr Schwartz: Yeah. And so back in 2004 when I published, um, my, my book, cancer Fitness, um, it was really premature when that book came out, but I really felt that there is, you know, and even then there was a really growing body of research that was. Highly supportive of exercise for cancer patients.

[00:26:37] Dr Schwartz: And I saw it in everyone that I worked with. Um, and all of my, I also work as an onco, was working as an oncology nurse practitioner. And I saw that all the patients that I told them what to do and go home and exercise, if they did it, they felt better. And in my research studies, I frequently would have patients come back and say, you know, Anna, I.

[00:26:57] Dr Schwartz: In the exercise group, but I didn't do the exercises. How do I start now? I feel horrible. And so I would, you know, start them on the program. It might be two or three months into, into their chemo. And I'd start them on, you know, at the beginning of their exercise program and see 'em a month later and they'd be like little flowers that had suddenly blossomed again and they're like, I feel fantastic again.

[00:27:20] Kathryn: Wow. 

[00:27:21] Dr Schwartz: Um, so yeah. So it's, it's. It was my mission to bring the exercise oncology science to people so that they could implement it in their lives by writing that book. 

[00:27:36] Kathryn: I just happen to have my copy right here. 

[00:27:38] Dr Schwartz: Excellent. 

[00:27:40] Kathryn: Cancer fitness, um, exercise programs for patients and survivors with a lovely little forward by Lance Armstrong himself.

[00:27:48] Kathryn: And, uh, like just perusing the book. There are so many. Here's just, I just happened to flip to peripheral neuropathy, like long-term side effects of osteoporosis, cancer, fitness fundamentals. And then I love that you have. Images in the book that show people what the exercises can look like as well. Mm-hmm.

[00:28:09] Kathryn: Because, you know, if you are a person who's never, let's call it working out where you're, you know, mm-hmm. Lifting weights or bands or things like that, it's, there is, there are proper ways to do it so as not to injure yourself and then add that layer of, of cancer on top of it. So to have these images in here, um.

[00:28:27] Kathryn: It really is friends that are listening. If you're watching the video, it is really a very, I am already like in love with this book. It is very useful and practical and it is, um, not sciencey. It's, it's normal people friendly, which I think is brilliant. 

[00:28:43] Dr Schwartz: That was my goal. I, you know, I, if you wrote it like a nerd, it would not, I mean, you know, I look at all the science papers we write and they get read, you know, by other nerdy scientists who can understand them.

[00:28:57] Dr Schwartz: That's really the people that need this information. 

[00:28:59] Kathryn: Yeah. 

[00:29:00] Dr Schwartz: Cancer survivors everywhere need this information. So 

[00:29:02] Kathryn: yeah, I can Google stuff on, on PubMed. I go to PubMed when I'm looking for information, but inevitably I read the intro and then I skip to the conclusions at the bottom because all of the data in between is, is overwhelming.

[00:29:16] Kathryn: So to have such a. Clear and articulate and concise, um, book available to people. I will absolutely link it in the show notes and, um, you know, hopefully the people who are listening will be as curious about this as I am. Um, and you mentioned you also have an app, which I have downloaded and I have yet to start the programs in it.

[00:29:40] Kathryn: Um. But I, I have, I have it on my phone and I'm excited to dive deeper into it. Did you wanna speak for a moment about the app? 

[00:29:48] Dr Schwartz: Yeah. Yeah. So the app evolved from all of my research and I took, I took all those different. Um, you know, all I created algorithms from what I saw worked for patients. And, um, so when the, when you use cancer exercise, this one is called, um, the app is very simple.

[00:30:09] Dr Schwartz: It was really meant to be very easy to use. That was my number one goal. It needed to be user friendly, easy to use, easy to read, um. And it also has, so the app is for cancer, survivor cancer survivors, whether you're the day of diagnosis or you have metastatic disease, and it's also for your caregiver.

[00:30:29] Dr Schwartz: Mm-hmm. So when you onboard, you get asked, are you, you know, do you have cancer or are you a caregiver? And then it goes in two different directions. Um, and then the whole thing is based on. It, adapt it. The app asks for what kind of cancer you had, your treatment, if you're currently on treatment, when your next treatment is, when you expect to be done with your treatment, have you exercised before, and kind of how much have you done?

[00:30:55] Dr Schwartz: And then it takes you through some exercise testing so it can develop, uh, exercise program for you. 

[00:31:02] Kathryn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:31:03] Dr Schwartz: It. So it um, has you do a six minute walk and it measures how far you go, and then it has you do a sit to stand test to tell what your muscle strength is and you record that in the app. How, you know if you did three sit to stands or 10 or however many in that 32nd time period.

[00:31:20] Dr Schwartz: And then, um, it creates an exercise program for you. And that program varies depending on if you're still on any kind of treatment, what your treatment is and when you're getting it. It varies by your level of fatigue, um, and whether you've been doing the exercises or not. Um, and so you'll always get a new exercise program.

[00:31:40] Dr Schwartz: It will vary from, you know, if you did it and I did it at the same time, and we had different levels of fatigue. Um, and we're just different people. We would get completely different, um. Exercise recommendations for today. 

[00:31:53] Kathryn: Amazing. 

[00:31:54] Dr Schwartz: And so, um, and then it regularly at, I think it's at six week intervals, it a, it asks you to do another six minute walk and the sit to stand and it all gets recorded in your, in your app on your phone so that you can see how you're progressing.

[00:32:08] Dr Schwartz: Um, you can record your weight, you know, all these other biometrics that you wanna record so you can see how things are changing and hopefully improving over time. Um, amazing. Yeah. And it gives you feedback to, you know, great job today. Or, you know, you seem like you're tired, maybe you should, you know, so it adjusts things.

[00:32:28] Dr Schwartz: And there are exercise, there's a whole library in there of how to exercise with cancer if you have metastasis, um, exercise library of how to do all the different exercises. So it was, it was a big project. It's being used all over the world now. Um. It's pretty exciting. 

[00:32:48] Kathryn: It is very exciting. And I think that, that the listeners are going to be very excited about this, um, because I often have conversations with them about like, uh, with my, my clients like, well, I don't want to go to the gym, or I, you know, I can't go to the gym, or I can't afford to go to the gym.

[00:33:05] Kathryn: Um, and then. That whole circling back to people who don't know how necessarily to work with people who do have cancer or in their survivorship or treatment phase. Right. So that the app addresses those pieces. Mm-hmm. So that, that the, the introverts or the, I don't love the gym people or the people who just don't feel good about leaving their home can still have access Exactly.

[00:33:30] Kathryn: In real time to move. This is just, yeah. This is very exciting. So I've 

[00:33:35] Dr Schwartz: lived in very rural and remote areas and I've seen so many cancer patients that don't have access to a physical therapist nearby or, um, you know, and this does not replace a physical therapist. I don't want to in any way say that, but it gives you guided exercise.

[00:33:52] Dr Schwartz: Um, if you need a physical therapist, you have a specific problem that needs to be addressed. Then the app will be really perfect for you if you don't wanna leave your home, if you're too immune compromised to go to the gym. Um, if you live in a really rural or remote area, or if you live anywhere, pretty much in the center of the United States where we don't really have very many exercise oncology programs.

[00:34:15] Dr Schwartz: I mean, most of them are on the East coast right? Or the West coast. Um, and so. Um, that was the goal with this was to again, you know, sort of the book. It was the same thing. Get, get cancer fitness information out to people, cancer exercise, let's get this app out to people so they can exercise wherever they are and they can get their caregiver involved because everybody needs to move.

[00:34:38] Kathryn: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I was having a conversation the other day without giving too much information away, uh, in a study that's being done here in Canada around exercise and, and one of the points that they were looking for feedback on what do we think the key things are that are. That need to be worked on.

[00:34:57] Kathryn: And one of the things that I spoke about, it's so interesting that you brought up like the Middle America piece is mm-hmm. We have, um, communities, many rural communities here in Canada mm-hmm. Where it's a big country and there's a lot of open space and people that live on farms or in port communities in Newfoundland or you know, up the coast in British Columbia that just can't get to.

[00:35:17] Kathryn: Like really our big centers like Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa, Vancouver, mm-hmm. Calgary have access to these places. But. Even where I am here in southwestern Ontario, I am completely unaware if there are exercise. Mm-hmm. Cancer exercise programs, so that, that this app, I feel I'm so, I'm so in love with this app that it is available and created by someone who has done research.

[00:35:45] Kathryn: It's not just like, oh, I'm gonna make a fitness app for cancer PA patients. It's someone who has yourself, who has done all of this research and is using science-based evidence to support. 

[00:35:56] Dr Schwartz: And it really comes, it, it evolved out of the research, um, and out of all the different programs that have been in evolution, um, over many, many years.

[00:36:05] Dr Schwartz: So yeah, so that's exactly, I mean, people in underserved areas, even if you're not in a, in a impoverished area, it's underserved for, for cancer care. And that's, that's what I hope to bring, uh, through this app. 

[00:36:21] Kathryn: Beautiful. 

[00:36:23] Dr Schwartz: Yeah, 

[00:36:23] Kathryn: that's. So, so wonderful. Thank you for all of that. I should probably put in the little disclaimer that I am not a doctor nurse or a nurse practitioner, and so you should always speak to your medical practitioner.

[00:36:33] Kathryn: Yes. Before you start anything new or inform them that this is something that you want to be doing and maybe share the book with your, speaking to the listeners, with your practitioner, share with them the app, because oftentimes the doctors, I think are so heads down that they don't have the opportunity to lift their head and see these sort types of resources that are available.

[00:36:53] Kathryn: And so let's, let's spread the news to them that there are things available. 

[00:36:58] Dr Schwartz: And I have to say that, you know, our bodies are meant to move. And so I really am very careful about putting up a firewall of you need to talk to your doctor before you start to exercise. Yes, if you're really sick, um, you might wanna mention something about you wanna start exercising, but the road to recovery begins with movement.

[00:37:20] Dr Schwartz: And whether that's. Sitting in bed and using TheraBands, um, to get your arms and your legs stronger, um, so that you can then sit on the edge of the bed to do, you know, and progress to standing up to doing exercise and walking around. There are ways ev we can all move. We just have to be creative in how we adapt, exercise for people, um, to be able to move.

[00:37:44] Kathryn: Thank you for adding that. Yes. Yeah, it's true. We really, we, we have become a sedentary society on a good day. So, but we, when our bodies are moving, they're just, they're just much healthier. 

[00:37:58] Dr Schwartz: They're happier. Yes, 

[00:37:59] Kathryn: yes, 

[00:38:00] Dr Schwartz: yes. And there's really no reason to medicalize, um, movement because, you know, we're meant to move.

[00:38:08] Dr Schwartz: We shouldn't put up, um, you know, the doctor as the gatekeeper to whether we exercise or not. 

[00:38:15] Kathryn: I think that that statement from, from me comes from that fear of, mm-hmm am I doing it right? Am I doing what my oncologist says I should be doing? What if I do something I'm not supposed to be doing? There's that, that additional layer of fear, pardon me, of.

[00:38:35] Kathryn: Am I going to be in trouble if I do something? Mm-hmm. But you're so right, like walking around your dining room is something that you could do if you didn't have cancer. So why not do it when you do? Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:48] Dr Schwartz: Right? Yeah. 

[00:38:50] Kathryn: Yes. Yeah, that's a very interesting piece. I'm glad that that came up actually. 'cause these people just don't know.

[00:38:58] Kathryn: So it's, it's good for them, 

[00:38:59] Dr Schwartz: right? They're afraid. It fear, is it paralyzed? It's part of the whole paralysis. Cancer paralysis is, you know, we, we afraid to do anything that we suddenly, we have cancer. We didn't have cancer maybe 15 minutes ago, but now we do. And now we're afraid to do anything. And because it might be the wrong thing.

[00:39:16] Dr Schwartz: It might make it worse. It might make it spread, you know? 

[00:39:19] Kathryn: Yes. So 

[00:39:20] Dr Schwartz: that fear is. Is real and what we know is that exercise is beneficial. Um, 

[00:39:30] Kathryn: and that is a perfect way to end this conversation. That exercise is beneficial and, and you can move just like you did 15 minutes ago. 

[00:39:42] Dr Schwartz: Exactly. 

[00:39:43] Kathryn: Brilliant. Brilliant.

[00:39:44] Kathryn: Thank you so much. I do have one more question for you that I ask all of my guests. Mm-hmm. And that is, what does living to thrive mean to you? 

[00:39:54] Dr Schwartz: To me, at, so when I was first diagnosed, living to thrive meant feeling like I was fully embracing the world. It was riding my bike, it was feeling the wind in my hair, achieving things that I never even really dreamed that I was going to achieve by setting world records and winning national championship titles.

[00:40:14] Dr Schwartz: But when, but that shifted and now I'm really, really focused on being able to help to, you know, to empower people to live their fullest mo most meaningful lives. And I'm doing that through. The strength for living, um, longevity optimization programs, um, through the resilience, um, reset retreats and, um, and, you know, and my app is, is reaching people to really help people get their lives back and move forward.

[00:40:42] Dr Schwartz: And that's, that's been my life's mission and continues to be. And I feel really fully and fully alive when I'm helping people, um, and doing things that are meaningful and important to me. And that's what that is. 

[00:40:55] Kathryn: Beautifully said. Thank you so much. I am so grateful that we were able to connect and that, um, that you are doing this work, like really breaking down those barriers for people around movement and.

[00:41:10] Kathryn: Cancer survivorship. It is, it is monumental work and it is, I think it is only going to continue to grow. So this conversation hopefully will help the listeners to start a next level of thinking within themselves or to open that conversation with, um, with a friend or a trainer to actually get exercise back into their lives.

[00:41:33] Dr Schwartz: Yeah, that'd be great. 

[00:41:35] Kathryn: That would be great. I will share, um, all of your information in the show notes where people can find you, where they can find your book, where they can find your app. I think that they're going to be very, very interested to learn more about you and the work that you are doing. So, um, if you are wanting to know more friends that are listening, you can just head to the show notes and Dr.

[00:41:56] Kathryn: Schwartz's information will all be in there. She has, we talked about the book and the app, um, but she does have a number of other offerings that are available. That people might be interested in taking a look at. So thank you Dr. Schwartz for being here today and for educating us a little bit more around exercise as a part of survivorship.

[00:42:15] Kathryn: I think it is a very big and um, beneficial conversation, and I think it is going to make a difference in many, many people's lives. 

[00:42:26] Dr Schwartz: Thank you and you're very welcome. I appreciate being on your show. Thanks. 

[00:42:30] Kathryn: You are very welcome. I'm so grateful again that we were able to connect. 

[00:42:34] Dr Schwartz: Me too. This was fun. 

[00:42:37] Kathryn: To our listeners today, if you found what you learned here today to be helpful, please share this episode with other people that you think could benefit from, um, the work that Dr.

[00:42:46] Kathryn: Schwartz is doing and the work that I am doing here on the podcast and beyond. Both of our goals are to help people move from just surviving with cancer to thriving with cancer. And if you are watching this on YouTube, please go ahead and subscribe. And if you are a listener, please um, download the podcast.

[00:43:04] Kathryn: Allow it to come to your inbox every week. You can join my newsletter to learn more about my Cancer Thriver Pathway program. And to stay up to date on what's going on in the world of cancer Thrivers. Again, Dr. Schwartz, thank you so much for being here today and I am very excited to share your work with the world.

[00:43:25] Dr Schwartz: Thank you. Thank you very much.